How Much Capital Does a U.S. Cutting Wheel Plant Require?
A cutting wheel factory is not a light-assembly startup. Even when the plant buys finished aluminum oxide or silicon carbide grain instead of producing abrasive grain itself, it still needs controlled mixing, hydraulic pressing, reinforcement handling, curing, dust capture, quality testing, tooling, packaging, and enough working capital to carry inventory and distributor receivables. The relevant U.S. classification is abrasive product manufacturing under NAICS 327910.
For a leased U.S. facility producing resin-bonded, fiberglass-reinforced cut-off wheels, a practical planning range is $1.66M-$4.79M. This is an analyst-built range, not a published industry average. The low end assumes a semi-automated line, a limited diameter catalog, used or refurbished equipment where sensible, and a building that already has adequate power and ventilation. The high end assumes multiple presses, more molds, better automation, a larger curing and test setup, stronger environmental controls, and enough cash to survive a slow commercial ramp.
Capital snapshot
The equipment line is only part of the check; working capital and facility controls decide whether the plant can reach steady production.
$1.66M-$4.79MPlanning range for a leased, production-ready U.S. plant
$250K-$700KWorking capital before stable collections and reorder volume
15%-30%Contingency to add when utilities, fire protection, permitting, or tooling are uncertain
The process economics are closely tied to the equipment sequence described in the EPA's abrasive manufacturing process guidance: grain and bond materials are measured and mixed, loaded into molds, pressed, cured or fired depending on the bond system, finished, inspected, and packed. Resin-bonded cutting wheels avoid the extreme kiln temperatures used for vitrified wheels, but curing control, resin dust management, reinforcement placement, and speed testing still make the line capital intensive.
Startup category
Planning range
What the estimate must cover
Facility deposit and build-out
$150,000-$500,000
Power upgrades, floor loading, ventilation, fire protection, storage zones, curing area, and docks
Mixing and metering
$100,000-$300,000
Batch mixers, scales, resin handling, feeders, controls, and dust-tight transfer
Excludes land purchase and abrasive grain manufacturing
Decision rule: do not sign a facility lease until an engineer has priced power, dust collection, fire protection, curing exhaust, and equipment foundations. A cheap building can become the most expensive line item.
What Does the Manufacturing and Cash Cycle Actually Look Like?
The business earns money only when repeatable batches become saleable, traceable wheels. That means the financial model must follow the physical flow of grain, resin, reinforcement, pressing, curing, inspection, and packaging. A batch that fails dimensional, balance, cure, or speed criteria is not merely scrap; it consumes material, press time, oven capacity, test labor, and delivery capacity.
Product architecture affects cost. The Norton Type 41 product specifications, for example, show how diameter, thickness, grit, abrasive material, wheel type, maximum RPM, and pack quantity become separate SKUs. Every extra diameter, arbor, thickness, abrasive blend, and package format adds molds, labels, test records, inventory, and changeover time.
Production-to-cash sequence
Each handoff creates either value, inventory, a quality hold, or a cash requirement, so the model should measure all six stages.
1Buy and receive grain, resin, fillers, mesh, bushings, and packaging
2Weigh and mix a controlled formulation by batch and lot
3Load mold, place reinforcement, press, and demold
4Cure under a validated time and temperature profile
5Inspect, test, label, pack, palletize, and release
6Ship to distributors, private-label accounts, industrial users, or e-commerce channels
Cash moves more slowly than material. A founder may pay resin and grain suppliers in 15-30 days, hold two to eight weeks of raw and finished inventory, and then wait 30-60 days for distributor payment. A three-month gap between paying for inputs and collecting a sale is common enough to model as a base case. Large private-label accounts can improve volume but often require custom packaging, safety documentation, samples, vendor qualification, and longer payment terms.
Working-capital example
At $350,000 of monthly cash operating cost, a 75-day cash conversion cycle can tie up roughly $875,000 before supplier credit and customer deposits. A smaller reserve may work only if suppliers extend terms, customers pay faster, or inventory turns are materially better.
Quick math: $350,000 × 75 ÷ 30 = $875,000. This is a planning calculation, not a universal industry benchmark.
The Unified Abrasives Manufacturers' Association explains that the ANSI B7 committee develops safety specifications for abrasive products, machines, accessories, storage, handling, and mounting. From a financial perspective, this means formulation control, test capability, records, and release authority are not optional overhead. They are part of the product.
Practical one-liner: a plant with a fast press and a slow test-release process still has a slow business.
How Do Cutting Wheels Earn Revenue, and What Should Pricing Reflect?
Revenue is units shipped multiplied by the realized selling price after discounts, rebates, samples, returns, and freight allowances. The mistake is to price from raw material cost alone. A cutting wheel's value also reflects cut rate, wheel life, safety confidence, consistency, packaging, channel support, and whether the user loses labor time changing worn wheels.
An MSC Industrial Supply cost comparison illustrates the point: a $1 wheel that delivers five cuts can be more expensive per cut than a $2 wheel that delivers 30 cuts. That example is not a market-wide benchmark, but it shows why performance data can support price tiers and why sales teams should discuss cost per cut rather than only unit price.
Core unit-economics formulaContribution per wheel = net selling price − variable material − variable labor − packaging − variable utilities − freight allowance − expected scrap and warranty
A distributor discount lowers net selling price immediately. A slower cure or higher scrap rate raises the cost side even when the list price does not change.
Illustrative product family
Net factory selling price
Variable cost
Contribution per wheel
Commercial logic
4.5-inch economy Type 41
$0.85-$1.20
$0.50-$0.75
$0.25-$0.55
High-volume distributor or private-label SKU with tight channel margin
4.5-inch premium metal or INOX wheel
$1.35-$2.20
$0.75-$1.20
$0.60-$1.00
Performance-led pricing supported by wheel life, cut speed, and lower changeover cost
7-inch reinforced cut-off wheel
$2.75-$4.50
$1.60-$2.70
$1.15-$1.80
Higher material content and freight weight, but stronger dollar contribution
12-14-inch stationary cut-off wheel
$8.00-$16.00
$5.00-$10.00
$3.00-$6.00
Lower unit volume, longer cure and handling, larger freight and test exposure
All prices and costs in the table are explicit planning assumptions for a mixed U.S. wholesale model. Actual quotes depend on formulation, diameter, thickness, packaging, order size, brand position, freight terms, and channel margin.
Revenue is a portfolio problem
A plant selling only economy 4.5-inch wheels may run plenty of units and still struggle to cover fixed cost. Larger wheels and premium formulations produce more contribution dollars but may turn more slowly. Private label can fill capacity, while branded industrial sales may create better margin but require field testing, technical support, sales samples, and longer customer qualification.
Track realized price: invoice revenue divided by shipped units, after rebates and credits.
Track contribution by SKU: a high-volume wheel can destroy margin if scrap, discounting, or packaging cost is understated.
Track concentration: no single private-label customer should quietly become the plant's only path to line utilization.
Track cost per cut: performance proof can defend price better than a generic premium claim.
Account-acquisition and repeat-order assumption
For a new industrial distributor or private-label account, budget $5,000-$25,000 of sales labor, travel, samples, trials, packaging work, and introductory support before a stable reorder pattern appears. Treat that range as a planning assumption. Target first-year contribution from the account at three to five times acquisition cost, and flag any customer that does not place a second commercial order within 90-180 days of qualification.
Demand is usually tied to metal fabrication, construction, repair, industrial maintenance, and distributor stocking. The end-use need is recurring because wheels are consumables, but purchase orders can be lumpy around shutdowns, large projects, annual bids, and inventory resets. Model monthly seasonality by customer rather than assuming one smooth annual sales curve.
Decision rule: approve new SKUs only when expected annual contribution exceeds mold, label, qualification, inventory, and changeover cost.
Which Monthly Costs Determine Contribution Margin?
Materials are usually the largest monthly outlay, but labor, freight, utilities, scrap, and selling expense decide whether gross profit becomes cash. The plant should separate truly variable costs from fixed and step-fixed costs. Resin, grain, mesh, labels, cases, and outbound freight tend to rise with units. Rent, core supervision, insurance, lab staffing, and much of maintenance remain even during a weak month.
Labor should be modeled by role and shift, not as one percentage. The latest BLS OEWS system publishes wage data for mixing and blending operators, pressing and compacting operators, oven operators, inspectors, packaging workers, maintenance mechanics, and production supervisors. Use the May 2025 BLS wage tables for the proposed state or metro, then add payroll taxes, benefits, overtime, training, turnover, and shift differentials. A $24 hourly wage can easily become a $31-$36 fully loaded hourly cost.
Illustrative monthly cost mix at 240,000 wheels
Materials dominate, but the combined burden of labor, support, maintenance, quality, and selling expense is larger than any single material line.
Materials34.6%
Direct labor and burden17.1%
Sales, administration, and marketing15.3%
Packaging and freight9.6%
Maintenance and quality loss8.8%
Utilities6.1%
Occupancy6.1%
Insurance and compliance2.4%
Monthly expense
Base-case amount
Primary driver
Abrasive grain, resin, fillers, mesh, bushings
$158,000
Formulation, wheel weight, purchase price, yield, and scrap
Direct production labor
$62,000
Crew size, shifts, press cycles, changeovers, and overtime
Payroll taxes and benefits
$16,000
Benefits design, state taxes, workers' compensation, and turnover
Utilities
$28,000
Ovens, presses, ventilation, compressed air, climate, and peak demand
Packaging and outbound freight
$44,000
Pack size, case weight, pallets, zone mix, and freight terms
Rent and occupancy
$28,000
Square footage, market, taxes, common charges, and insurance requirements
Maintenance and tooling
$22,000
Press wear, molds, oven service, dust systems, and spare parts
Quality loss, scrap, warranty, and testing
$18,000
First-pass yield, destructive testing, rework, credits, and recalls
Insurance and compliance
$11,000
Product liability, property, environmental, safety, and professional support
Sales and administration
$58,000
Management, sales salaries, commissions, ERP, accounting, and technical service
Marketing, samples, and qualification trials
$12,000
Distributor onboarding, catalogs, samples, demonstrations, and test support
Total
$457,000
Base-case operating month before depreciation, interest, and income tax
Ventilation is both a safety cost and a production cost. OSHA's ventilation requirements cover abrasive blasting and grinding-related exhaust concepts, while the exact plant design depends on the dusts, resins, transfer points, and local code. Undersized capture systems create housekeeping risk; oversized or poorly controlled systems waste energy.
Practical one-liner: the cheapest wheel to make is not necessarily the wheel with the lowest material cost; it is the wheel that passes the first time and ships without a claim.
Break-Even Volume Depends on Mix, Scrap, and Line Utilization
Break-even is not the press's nameplate capacity. It is the number of saleable wheels required to cover fixed cost at the plant's actual contribution margin. Product mix matters because a 4.5-inch economy wheel and a 14-inch stationary wheel consume different materials, oven space, handling, freight, and selling effort.
Break-even formulaBreak-even units = monthly fixed costs ÷ weighted-average contribution per wheel
Using the base assumptions, fixed costs are about $141,000 per month and contribution is about $0.88 per wheel. Break-even is therefore roughly 160,000 saleable wheels per month.
Quick math: $141,000 ÷ $0.88 = 160,227 wheels. At a $2.20 blended selling price, break-even revenue is about $352,000 per month.
The denominator is fragile. If contribution falls from $0.88 to $0.70 because of resin inflation, freight allowances, discounting, or scrap, break-even rises to about 201,000 wheels. If a premium mix raises contribution to $1.05, break-even falls to about 134,000 wheels. This is why the sales forecast must be built by SKU family rather than by one average price.
Every 1-point scrap reductionAt 240,000 wheels per month and $1.32 of variable cost per wheel, reducing scrap by one percentage point protects roughly $3,200 of monthly conversion value before considering recovered capacity and fewer late shipments.
Capacity should be measured in good wheels, not press strokes
A nominal line capable of 400,000 press cycles may deliver far fewer saleable units after planned maintenance, formulation changes, mold changes, cure bottlenecks, test holds, destructive samples, and rejects. During ramp-up, a financially credible plan may use only 45%-60% of theoretical capacity, then improve toward 65%-80% as the product catalog stabilizes.
Safety and proof-testing requirements also shape capacity. Norton notes that ANSI B7.1 addresses wheel safety and that many wheels are speed tested above approved operating speed. The manufacturer speed-testing explanation is useful context for why test equipment, sampling plans, traceability, and quarantine space must be modeled as production resources.
Decision rule: do not add a second shift until the first shift's first-pass yield, schedule attainment, and order backlog show that demand rather than process loss is the true constraint.
How Much Can the Owner Realistically Earn?
Owner income is not revenue and it is not accounting gross profit. A safe owner draw comes after materials, payroll, rent, utilities, freight, quality losses, insurance, selling expense, debt service, taxes, maintenance capital spending, and a working-capital reserve. If the owner also serves as general manager or sales leader, the model should include a market-based salary for that work before calculating the return on invested equity.
The following scenarios use a leased-facility model with approximately $2.8M of total startup investment. They are planning cases, not claims about average industry earnings. The conservative case shows why underutilized manufacturing businesses can consume cash even when the product has a positive gross margin.
Scenario
Annual revenue
Contribution margin
EBITDA
Potential owner-discretionary cash
Conservative
$3.8M-$4.2M
34%-37%
-$275,000 to $50,000
$0; additional cash may be required
Base
$6.0M-$6.6M
39%-41%
$750,000-$900,000
$180,000-$330,000 after debt, tax, maintenance capex, and reserves
Upside
$8.4M-$9.2M
42%-44%
$1.6M-$1.9M
$650,000-$950,000 after higher taxes, capex, and working-capital support
Depreciation is non-cash, but the equipment eventually needs repair or replacement. Ignoring maintenance capex overstates distributable cash.
Existing plants should evaluate owner earnings differently from new plants. An established operation may already have trained labor, approved formulations, distributor relationships, molds, lab systems, and a stable insurance history. Incremental capacity can therefore produce attractive returns if the bottleneck is a press, oven, or packaging cell rather than the whole facility. But a mature plant can also hide weak economics through old, fully depreciated equipment and deferred maintenance.
Normalize management pay: separate salary for work performed from return on ownership.
Reserve for claims: product credits and liability costs may arrive months after the original sale.
Fund growth: a profitable distributor order can require more inventory and receivables before it creates cash.
Replace equipment: ovens, collectors, controls, and molds do not stay productive forever.
Practical one-liner: owner income begins where the cash-flow statement ends, not where the sales report begins.
Which KPIs Reveal Whether the Plant Is Drifting?
The useful KPI set connects the shop floor to the financial model. A plant can hit revenue while losing money through discounting, poor mix, overtime, scrap, or slow collections. It can also miss a monthly shipment target for a good reason, such as rejecting unsafe product. Management needs measures that distinguish sales weakness from capacity loss, quality loss, and cash-cycle pressure.
NIST's Manufacturing Extension Partnership describes digital performance and quality management as ways to make production KPIs visible and connect maintenance, quality, and productivity data. The NIST MEP manufacturing guidance supports the basic principle: capture the data at the process, not weeks later in accounting.
KPI
Formula
Planning interpretation
Financial-model connection
First-pass yield
Good wheels released ÷ total wheels completed
Ramp target 92%-96%; stable target 96%-99%, adjusted for product complexity
Material usage, conversion labor, scrap, test holds, and capacity
Scrap cost per 1,000 wheels
Scrap material and conversion cost ÷ completed units × 1,000
Investigate any sustained rise above budget or any batch-linked spike
Variable cost, gross margin, and working capital
Good wheels per press hour
Released wheels ÷ productive press hours
Compare by diameter and mold; do not blend unlike SKUs without weighting
Labor productivity, capacity, shift need, and break-even volume
Schedule attainment
Orders completed on schedule ÷ orders scheduled
Below 90% for several weeks suggests planning, uptime, supply, or quality constraints
Revenue timing, overtime, expediting, and customer retention
Weighted contribution per wheel
Total contribution dollars ÷ saleable wheels
Must cover fixed cost at expected volume; compare actual with quote assumptions
Break-even, pricing, mix, and owner earnings
Realized price variance
Actual net price − modeled net price
A few cents per wheel can materially change EBITDA at high volume
Revenue, commission, rebate, and margin assumptions
Customer concentration
Largest customer revenue ÷ total revenue
Stress-test loss or 20% price reduction for any account above 20%-25%
Sales risk, receivables risk, and capacity planning
Qualified-account repeat rate
Accounts placing a repeat order ÷ accounts completing qualification
Investigate accounts with no second order within the expected 90-180 day reorder window
Customer acquisition payback, sales forecast, and inventory plan
Cash conversion cycle
Inventory days + receivable days − payable days
A 15-day increase can require a substantial revolver draw during growth
Working capital, funding need, and debt capacity
Return and claim rate
Credited or claimed units ÷ shipped units
Track by SKU, batch, customer, application, and failure mode
Warranty reserve, liability risk, customer retention, and formulation review
The numeric ranges above are management planning targets, not published universal standards. A plant should establish its own control limits by wheel family, process, and customer requirement.
Sensitivity worth putting on the weekly dashboard
At 240,000 monthly wheels, every $0.05 change in realized contribution per wheel changes monthly contribution by $12,000. That can come from price, mix, scrap, freight, resin, or labor. The dashboard should show which lever moved.
Decision rule: every KPI should have an owner, a review frequency, a threshold, and a model assumption it updates.
Compliance, Product Liability, and Dust Risk Carry Real Financial Cost
Cutting wheels rotate at high speed and can fragment if they are misapplied, damaged, mislabeled, improperly mounted, or defectively manufactured. OSHA's abrasive wheel machinery standard focuses on guarding and safe use, while manufacturers must design their own product controls around applicable consensus standards, specifications, customer requirements, and legal advice. The financial model should include product liability coverage, destructive testing, retained samples, lot records, complaint investigation, legal review, and recall response.
Phenolic resin and other fine powders also create housekeeping and potential combustible-dust concerns. OSHA's combustible dust enforcement guidance specifically discusses a fatal explosion involving phenolic binder dust at a fiberglass-products plant. That event was not a cutting wheel factory, but the material adjacency is financially relevant: dust hazard analysis, proper collection, ignition control, cleaning methods, training, and maintenance can affect building design and insurance.
Risk cost profile
Preventive controls have a budgetable cost; a recall, fire, injury, or forced shutdown does not have a clean upper limit.
Preventive spend$150K-$450KInitial dust, ventilation, fire, and monitoring systems in the startup budget
Annual control cost$60K-$180KInspection, maintenance, testing, training, insurance, professional support, and waste handling
Unbounded downsideRecall or shutdownLost sales, expedited replacement, injury exposure, damaged equipment, and distributor delisting
Build the risk register in dollars
Batch failure: value the raw material, labor, oven time, testing, disposal, and late-delivery penalty.
Supplier variation: model requalification time and the cash cost of holding dual-source safety stock.
Product claim: reserve for credits, freight, lab work, legal review, and possible broader containment.
Dust-system outage: estimate lost production per hour and the cost of compliant cleanup or repair.
Utility interruption: quantify cure loss, restarted batches, and shipment delay.
Customer concentration: model the cash effect of a distributor switching suppliers or demanding a rebate.
Waste classification also matters. The EPA explains that hazardous-waste generator obligations depend on what waste is generated and the amount generated in a calendar month. Review the EPA hazardous-waste generator framework with state regulators and qualified environmental counsel. Resin, solvents, contaminated cleanup material, test debris, and off-spec product should be characterized before the plant assumes ordinary disposal pricing.
Practical one-liner: compliance is cheaper when it is designed into the floor plan instead of added after the first inspection.
How Should the Plant Be Funded and Opened in Stages?
The funding package should match asset life. Long-lived presses, ovens, building improvements, and test equipment should not be financed entirely with a short working-capital line. Inventory and receivables should not be buried in a fixed-asset loan that leaves no seasonal liquidity. Lenders will want a detailed sources-and-uses schedule, equipment quotes, collateral information, owner equity, customer evidence, and a monthly cash-flow model with downside coverage.
The SBA states that 7(a) financing can support machinery, equipment, real estate, supplies, and short- or long-term working capital, subject to lender underwriting and program rules. The SBA 504 program is designed for major fixed assets and generally cannot fund working capital or inventory. A manufacturing project may therefore combine owner equity, a fixed-asset facility, and a separate revolving line.
Illustrative funding source
Amount
Share
Best use
Owner or investor equity
$900,000
32%
Contingency, pre-opening losses, lender cushion, and nonfinanceable costs
Fixed-asset term loan or 504 structure
$1,250,000
45%
Presses, ovens, dust systems, testing, and long-life improvements
7(a) term loan or working-capital facility
$450,000
16%
Inventory, receivables, launch payroll, samples, and commercial ramp
Vendor financing or landlord allowance
$200,000
7%
Eligible equipment, electrical work, racking, or tenant improvements
Total
$2,800,000
100%
Balanced fixed-asset and working-capital structure
A financially staged opening sequence
The schedule is designed to spend heavily only after demand, facility feasibility, financing, and process controls have cleared successive gates.
Months 0-2Validate demand and product scope. Secure customer interviews, target SKUs, performance requirements, sample commitments, and preliminary price-volume expectations before ordering a broad mold catalog.
Months 2-4Complete facility and permit diligence. Price power, ventilation, dust, fire, waste, zoning, insurance, and construction. Build a full sources-and-uses schedule with contingency.
Months 3-7Finalize financing and equipment orders. Match loan terms to asset life, lock owner equity, negotiate milestones, and preserve a working-capital line.
Months 6-10Install and commission. Validate utilities, dust capture, cure profiles, formulations, tooling, traceability, test methods, and preventive maintenance.
Months 9-12Run qualification batches. Budget for low yield, destructive testing, customer samples, documentation, and delayed release.
Months 12-18Ramp the commercial mix. Add distributor and private-label volume while watching realized price, concentration, receivables, and service levels.
After month 18Expand only around the bottleneck. Add molds, presses, oven capacity, packaging automation, or a second shift based on measured constraint economics.
Signed equipment quotes and installation scope
Monthly model with conservative ramp and 15%-30% contingency
Customer pipeline by SKU, price, volume, and payment terms
Dust, fire, environmental, zoning, and insurance diligence
Owner equity evidence and collateral schedule
Working-capital borrowing base and reporting capability
Practical one-liner: finance the ramp, not just the machinery.
What Payback Period Is Realistic, and How Does the Financial Model Connect It All?
Payback measures how long it takes cumulative cash generated by the plant to recover the initial investment. It is useful because it forces management to connect capital cost with actual free cash flow, but it should not replace discounted cash flow, debt coverage, or risk analysis. A five-year paper payback can become seven years after a 12-month qualification ramp, a large inventory build, a distributor delay, or an oven replacement.
Payback formulaPayback period = initial investment ÷ annual free cash flow available for payback
For project payback, use operating cash after tax and maintenance capex but before financing. For equity payback, use cash available to equity after debt service and required working-capital support.
Payback case
Initial investment
Annual free cash available
Simple payback
What drives the result
Conservative
$2,800,000
$150,000
18.7 years
Low utilization, economy mix, higher scrap, and slow collections
Premium mix, strong yield, high utilization, and disciplined working capital
The base result should still be stress-tested. A 10% volume shortfall can remove more than $500,000 of annual revenue. A $0.10 reduction in contribution across 2.88 million annual wheels removes $288,000 of annual contribution. A 20-day increase in the cash conversion cycle can require hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional liquidity. These are not edge cases; they are the levers that decide whether payback is bankable.
How the full model should flow
The sequence turns operating assumptions into cash available for owners and investors; changing any upstream assumption should update every downstream result.
AStartup assets and pre-opening costs define total funding need
BSKU price × saleable volume defines net revenue
CMaterial, labor, scrap, packaging, utilities, and freight define contribution
DFixed plant, quality, selling, and administration costs define EBITDA and break-even
More equipment raises startup investment, depreciation, debt service, and expected capacity. Higher price improves contribution but may slow conversion or increase selling cost. More volume raises revenue but also inventory, labor, freight, receivables, and claim exposure. Lower scrap improves margin and releases capacity at the same time. A financial model, business plan, and lender package are most useful when they use the same assumptions rather than three separate stories.
Investment conclusion
Cutting wheel manufacturing can create attractive economics when the plant combines validated formulations, high first-pass yield, disciplined SKU count, repeat distributor demand, a premium-performance story, and enough working capital. The same business becomes fragile when it relies on one low-price customer, assumes full capacity at launch, underbudgets dust and testing systems, or treats receivables as profit.
A realistic base case is not “build the line and sell everything it can make.” It is “qualify a focused catalog, reach roughly 160,000 monthly break-even units, scale toward 240,000 saleable units, preserve about $0.88 of weighted contribution per wheel, and hold enough liquidity for a 60-90 day cash cycle.” That gives founders, lenders, and investors a set of assumptions they can test rather than a promise they cannot verify.
Final one-liner: the investment works when quality, mix, utilization, and cash timing improve together.