How Much Money Does a Cookies Business Need Before the First Sale?
A cookies business can be a small cottage-food side operation, a shared-kitchen brand, a retail cookie shop, an e-commerce gift-box company, or a wholesale packaged-cookie manufacturer. The financial plan changes fast because each model has a different facility requirement, food-safety burden, batch size, labor model, and marketing cost. The first decision is not the recipe. It is the operating model that determines how much cash must be committed before revenue starts.
The U.S. Small Business Administration recommends separating one-time startup costs from ongoing expenses, then using that estimate to request funding and judge when the business can turn profitable through its startup cost planning guidance. For cookies, the practical range is wide: roughly $5,000-$25,000 for a compliant home or cottage-food launch, $35,000-$120,000 for a shared or commissary-kitchen brand, and $120,000-$450,000+ for a leased storefront or small production bakery with customer-facing retail.
$5K-$25K
Cottage or home-based launch
Usually covers ingredients, packaging, labels, market fees, basic equipment, website, insurance, and a small cash reserve.
$35K-$120K
Shared-kitchen or online brand
Adds commissary rent, larger mixers, production racks, storage, shipping supplies, launch marketing, and higher working capital.
$120K-$450K+
Retail shop or small bakery
Includes lease deposits, build-out, ovens, display cases, POS, signage, payroll ramp-up, and several months of operating cushion.
These are planning ranges, not guarantees. A founder baking decorated custom cookies from an approved home kitchen has a very different cash need from a founder signing a five-year lease for a premium walk-in cookie shop. The most dangerous version is the middle: too large for cottage rules, but not yet large enough to spread rent, payroll, and equipment debt over reliable daily volume.
| Startup Cost Category |
Cottage / Home Launch |
Shared-Kitchen Brand |
Retail Cookie Shop |
Planning Note |
| Equipment and smallwares |
$1,500-$7,500 |
$12,000-$45,000 |
$45,000-$160,000 |
Mixers, ovens, speed racks, sheet pans, cooling racks, scales, storage, utensils, and packaging stations. |
| Facility, deposits, build-out |
$500-$3,000 |
$5,000-$20,000 |
$35,000-$180,000 |
Retail stores absorb the largest cash risk through leasehold improvements, utility upgrades, signage, and deposits. |
| Permits, legal, insurance, labels |
$700-$3,000 |
$2,000-$8,000 |
$5,000-$18,000 |
Costs vary by state, county, sales channel, allergen controls, and whether products enter wholesale or interstate commerce. |
| Opening ingredients and packaging |
$800-$4,000 |
$4,000-$18,000 |
$8,000-$35,000 |
Butter, chocolate, flour, sugar, boxes, bags, labels, inserts, and seasonal SKUs tie up cash before sales clear. |
| Website, POS, photography, launch marketing |
$1,000-$5,000 |
$5,000-$20,000 |
$12,000-$45,000 |
Online cookie brands need stronger product photography, gifting pages, ads, email, and repeat-order systems. |
| Working capital reserve |
$1,000-$5,000 |
$7,000-$29,000 |
$15,000-$60,000 |
Reserve should cover ramp-up losses, spoilage, market fees, payroll timing, and ingredient price spikes. |
| Total estimated startup investment |
$5,500-$27,500 |
$35,000-$140,000 |
$120,000-$498,000 |
A conservative plan uses the high end until signed quotes, lease terms, and permit requirements are known. |
The clean one-liner: the more the business depends on walk-in traffic, the more the founder is betting on lease economics before customer demand is proven.
What Operating Model Fits the Unit Economics of a Cookie Brand?
Cookies look simple because the unit is small, but the business model is not one-size-fits-all. A dozen premium cookies sold at a farmers market can have attractive gross margin, but volume is capped by booth hours and local demand. A national gift-box site can sell at higher average order value, but shipping, breakage, customer acquisition, and fulfillment labor eat into contribution margin. A storefront can build habit and brand visibility, but daily payroll and rent do not care whether a Tuesday is slow.
Classification also matters. The Census NAICS system distinguishes cookie and cracker manufacturing from retail bakeries and other baked-goods retail formats; the official NAICS description for cookie and cracker manufacturing is useful because it shows when a cookie venture is moving from local food service into production economics. That shift changes insurance, labeling, distribution, shelf life, and working capital.
Cottage direct-to-consumer
Farmers markets
Custom decorated orders
E-commerce gift boxes
Retail cookie shop
Wholesale packaged cookies
Cottage / local direct sale
Revenue unit: dozen, custom set, or event order. Pricing often runs from $18-$60+ per dozen depending on decoration, local income levels, and pickup convenience. The constraint is owner time, market fees, low batch efficiency, and limited legal channels.
Shared-kitchen online brand
Revenue unit: box, subscription, or gift order. A $24-$60 box can work only when packaging, breakage, paid ads, and shipping subsidies are built into contribution margin.
Retail cookie shop
Revenue unit: single cookie, four-pack, six-pack, and beverage attachment. The model needs repeat traffic because rent and minimum staffing create daily fixed pressure.
Wholesale packaged cookies
Revenue unit: case, unit, pallet, or store order. The model needs strong shelf life, repeatable production, retailer margin room, and enough cash to fund inventory before payment arrives.
A cookie financial model should not start with annual revenue. It should start with the revenue unit: cookies per batch, batches per day, sell-through percentage, average order value, labor minutes per order, and contribution margin after ingredient, packaging, payment, and fulfillment costs.
Startup Investment Is Mostly a Capacity and Compliance Decision
A founder can make excellent cookies and still build an uneconomic operation if the equipment, facility, and compliance path do not match expected volume. The profitable choice is usually not the cheapest choice; it is the smallest setup that can safely produce the forecasted orders without excessive labor per cookie, spoilage, or delivery chaos.
Food regulation is a major fork in the model. The FDA explains that food businesses may face federal, state, and local requirements depending on product and facility type in its food business startup overview. Some cookie businesses can begin under state cottage-food rules, while others need a permitted commercial kitchen, local health inspection, packaged-food labeling, and possibly FDA food facility registration if the business manufactures, processes, packs, or holds food for U.S. consumption in a covered facility.
Startup Cost Concentration by Retail Shop Budget
Takeaway: build-out and equipment can consume more than half of pre-opening cash before the first cookie is sold.
Build-out and facility
42%
Equipment
30%
Opening inventory
10%
Marketing and systems
9%
Permits and professional fees
5%
Contingency
4%
If the business is home-based, compliance may be the constraint, not the oven. For example, California’s approved cottage-food list includes cookies among baked goods without cream, custard, or meat fillings in the state’s approved cottage foods list, but that does not mean every state allows the same channels, sales caps, shipping methods, or wholesale relationships. The founder should price the legal route into the model early, because moving from home production to a commercial kitchen can turn a profitable side business into a cash-hungry operation.
Practical planning note: before buying production equipment, model the maximum number of sellable cookies per hour. If a $6,000 mixer saves 12 labor hours a week at a loaded labor cost of $20 per hour, the equipment saves about $12,480 a year before maintenance. That math is more useful than asking whether the mixer is “professional.”
How Do Cookie Pricing and Unit Economics Work?
Cookie pricing has to cover more than flour, butter, sugar, chocolate, and a box. A financially sound price includes ingredient yield loss, packaging, card fees, labor time, energy, market fees, delivery or shipping, and a share of fixed overhead. Premium cookies can show high gross margin on ingredients alone, but the true contribution margin falls when decoration time, fulfillment, customer service, and unsold inventory are included.
Ingredient volatility matters because cookie recipes lean on wheat, dairy, eggs, sugar, chocolate, oils, and packaging. USDA’s Food Price Outlook tracks food-price movement, including categories that affect bakery inputs, and reported higher food prices in 2026 in its summary findings. For bakery-specific inflation context, the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis publishes the BLS CPI series for cereals and bakery products. A cookie model should therefore include ingredient cost sensitivity, not just a static recipe cost.
Core unit economics formula
Contribution per order = selling price - ingredients - packaging - payment fees - fulfillment labor - delivery or shipping subsidy
Contribution margin is the percentage left after variable costs. Fixed costs such as rent, salaried management, insurance, software, and base utilities are paid from this contribution.
| Revenue Unit |
Example Selling Price |
Variable Cost Range |
Contribution Margin Range |
What Can Break the Assumption |
| Single premium cookie |
$3.50-$6.00 |
$1.10-$2.60 |
45%-70% |
Overweight portions, high chocolate cost, slow service labor, unsold end-of-day product. |
| Six-pack retail box |
$18-$32 |
$6-$14 |
40%-65% |
Discounts, custom packaging, low bundle attachment, and weak repeat purchases. |
| Decorated custom dozen |
$45-$120+ |
$15-$45 |
35%-65% |
Design labor, revisions, rush orders, edible ink, breakage, and underpriced complexity. |
| E-commerce gift box |
$30-$65 before shipping |
$16-$38 |
20%-50% |
Shipping subsidies, warm-weather packaging, paid ads, refunds, reships, and fragile presentation. |
| Wholesale case |
Depends on case count and retailer margin |
50%-75% of wholesale price |
25%-50% |
Distributor cuts, retailer margin, shelf-life constraints, minimum runs, and buybacks or credits. |
Here’s the quick math: if a $28 cookie box has $9 of ingredients and packaging, $1 in card fees, $4 in packing labor, and a $3 shipping subsidy, contribution is $11. That is a 39% contribution margin. If fixed costs are $12,000 per month, the business needs about 1,091 boxes per month before owner pay and taxes. A prettier box does not help unless it raises conversion, repeat orders, or price enough to cover the added cost.
Monthly Operating Costs and Cash-Cycle Pressure
Cookies are paid for quickly when sold direct, which is helpful. But cash still gets strained by pre-buying ingredients, seasonal packaging, payroll timing, farmers market fees, delivery costs, wholesale receivables, credit card settlement delays, equipment repairs, and the gap between advertising spend and repeat purchase. For a retail shop, rent and base payroll arrive every month whether the business sells 500 cookies a day or 150.
Labor is usually the largest controllable operating expense after ingredients and rent. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports baker pay and employment outlook in its Bakers Occupational Outlook Handbook, including a May 2024 median annual wage of $36,650 and projected employment growth for bakers. A cookie founder should translate wage data into a loaded cost by adding payroll taxes, workers’ compensation, training time, overtime risk, manager coverage, and paid time off where applicable.
| Monthly Expense Category |
Shared-Kitchen Brand |
Retail Cookie Shop |
Cost Behavior |
Management Lever |
| Ingredients and packaging |
$6,000-$28,000 |
$12,000-$55,000 |
Variable with sales but subject to waste and minimum buys |
Recipe costing, portion control, supplier quotes, batch planning, seasonal SKU discipline. |
| Labor and payroll burden |
$5,000-$22,000 |
$18,000-$70,000 |
Semi-variable; minimum coverage creates fixed pressure |
Schedule to order volume, cross-train, measure cookies per labor hour, limit overtime. |
| Kitchen or rent expense |
$1,500-$8,000 |
$5,000-$25,000 |
Mostly fixed |
Negotiate ramp rent, avoid oversized space, model rent as a percentage of sales. |
| Utilities, repairs, sanitation |
$800-$4,500 |
$2,500-$12,000 |
Mixed; ovens and refrigeration drive usage |
Maintain equipment, track oven cycles, budget repairs as a monthly reserve. |
| Marketing, delivery, software, card fees |
$2,000-$18,000 |
$3,000-$25,000 |
Variable and discretionary, but easy to overspend |
Track CAC, repeat rate, email conversion, refund rate, and net contribution by channel. |
| Insurance, accounting, permits, admin |
$900-$4,500 |
$2,000-$8,000 |
Mostly fixed |
Plan renewals, avoid missed filings, and match coverage to sales channels. |
| Total estimated monthly operating cost |
$16,200-$85,000 |
$42,500-$195,000 |
Fixed cost rises sharply with storefront scale |
Keep a 2-4 month operating reserve during ramp-up where possible. |
Common mistake: using ingredient cost alone as “cost of goods sold.” For cookies, the real direct cost also includes packaging, labels, payment fees, production labor, spoilage, damaged shipments, samples, and refunds. Understating this line can make break-even look lower than it really is.
What Break-Even Sales Volume Makes the Cookie Model Work?
Break-even is where the cookie business stops using owner savings to pay monthly bills. It is not the same as being attractive to the owner. The founder still needs taxes, debt service, replacement equipment, emergency reserves, and a draw. Still, break-even is the first hard test of whether the model can stand up.
Break-even formula
Break-even revenue = fixed monthly costs ÷ contribution margin
If fixed costs are $24,000 and contribution margin is 48%, break-even revenue is $50,000 per month. If average order value is $25, that means 2,000 orders per month, or about 67 orders per day in a 30-day month.
Contribution margin is the sensitive variable. A retail shop selling a premium six-pack may have a strong gross margin before labor, but if staffing is too heavy, labor turns into a fixed cost. An online gift-box model may sell at a higher ticket, but paid media and shipping subsidies can pull contribution margin down by 10-20 percentage points. The model should show both before the founder signs a lease or hires a team.
| Scenario |
Fixed Monthly Cost |
Contribution Margin |
Break-Even Monthly Revenue |
Orders Needed at $25 AOV |
| Lean shared kitchen |
$12,000 |
55% |
$21,818 |
873 orders/month |
| Growing online brand |
$24,000 |
45% |
$53,333 |
2,133 orders/month |
| Retail cookie shop |
$55,000 |
58% |
$94,828 |
3,793 orders/month |
| Retail shop with weak labor control |
$65,000 |
45% |
$144,444 |
5,778 orders/month |
1 point
A one-point drop in contribution margin can require hundreds of extra monthly orders in a storefront model. That is why portion control, labor scheduling, and pricing discipline matter as much as sales growth.
A lender will usually care less about cookie creativity than about whether daily transactions, average ticket, contribution margin, and fixed costs produce enough cushion. The founder should stress-test break-even at 70%, 85%, and 100% of expected volume because most new food concepts ramp unevenly.
Which KPIs Should a Cookie Founder Track Every Week?
The best cookie KPIs are not vanity metrics. Followers, likes, and website traffic only matter if they become profitable orders. A founder needs a short weekly dashboard that connects production, pricing, customer behavior, and cash. The goal is to spot margin drift early, before a busy month quietly turns into a low-cash month.
Food safety and labeling also deserve operational KPIs because allergen mistakes can create recalls, refunds, legal cost, and reputation loss. FDA materials on major food allergens and the agency’s guidance on food allergen labeling are directly relevant when cookies include wheat, milk, eggs, peanuts, tree nuts, soy, sesame, or shared-equipment cross-contact risk.
| KPI |
Formula |
Planning Benchmark or Interpretation |
Decision It Affects |
| Ingredient cost percentage |
Ingredient cost ÷ net sales |
Often modeled at 18%-35% depending on cookie size, chocolate content, and premium packaging. |
Price changes, portion control, supplier negotiation, and recipe design. |
| Production labor per order |
Production labor hours ÷ fulfilled orders |
Should fall as batch size rises; decorated custom work may stay high by design. |
Batch scheduling, hiring, equipment upgrades, and product mix. |
| Cookies per labor hour |
Sellable cookies produced ÷ production labor hours |
Track by SKU; low-volume seasonal items often look profitable until labor is counted. |
Menu simplification and premium pricing for complex designs. |
| Average order value |
Net sales ÷ number of orders |
A retail shop may need bundle and drink attachment to move beyond single-cookie economics. |
Merchandising, upsells, bundles, gifting, and minimum order thresholds. |
| Waste and spoilage rate |
Unsold or discarded product cost ÷ production cost |
A rising rate usually signals overproduction, weak demand forecasting, or too many SKUs. |
Batch size, shelf-life rules, end-of-day discounts, and production planning. |
| Repeat purchase rate |
Repeat customers in period ÷ total customers in period |
Critical for cookies because gifts and cravings should produce recurring orders, not one-time spikes. |
Email, loyalty offers, subscription logic, and customer retention spend. |
| CAC payback |
Customer acquisition cost ÷ contribution profit from first and repeat orders |
A paid ad customer is healthy only if contribution profit repays acquisition spend quickly. |
Ad budget, discounting, influencer spend, and channel mix. |
| Allergen label accuracy |
Correct labels reviewed ÷ labels used |
Should be treated as a 100% control item, not a loose average. |
Packaging workflow, product release approvals, insurance risk, and recall prevention. |
The practical rule: if a KPI does not change a price, batch, schedule, ad budget, or cash decision, it probably does not belong on the weekly dashboard.
What Can Go Wrong Financially in a Cookies Business?
Cookie businesses usually fail from a stack of small leaks, not one dramatic problem. Ingredient costs creep up. Labor minutes per box are underestimated. A shipping carrier damages gift boxes. Holiday demand spikes and then disappears. A wholesale buyer pays in 30 days while payroll is due this week. A new storefront overproduces for foot traffic that has not yet formed a habit.
Cottage-food rules can also limit growth. The Association of Food and Drug Officials provides cottage food laws and guidance that show why state-by-state restrictions matter. A founder who assumes home-kitchen sales can scale nationally may discover that shipping, wholesale, or sales caps require a commercial facility sooner than expected.
| Risk |
Financial Impact |
Early Warning KPI |
Planning Response |
| Ingredient inflation |
Gross margin compresses by 3-10 points if prices stay fixed. |
Ingredient cost percentage by SKU |
Use recipe costing, supplier alternates, smaller pack sizes, or planned price increases. |
| Underpriced custom labor |
Owner earns below wage even when orders look profitable. |
Labor minutes per dozen |
Price by design complexity, rush timing, and revisions, not only by cookie count. |
| Low repeat purchase |
Paid marketing becomes a treadmill instead of a growth engine. |
Repeat rate and CAC payback |
Improve product quality, email capture, gifting reminders, subscriptions, and local partnerships. |
| Overproduction and waste |
Cash is converted into discarded ingredients and labor. |
Waste cost ÷ production cost |
Narrow menu, produce to demand curves, use preorders, and discount carefully. |
| Allergen or label failure |
Recall expense, refunds, lost accounts, legal exposure, and insurance claims. |
Label review completion and batch traceability |
Separate allergen workflows, document label approvals, train staff, and keep batch records. |
| Wholesale cash lag |
Profit may show on paper while cash is tied in receivables and inventory. |
Days sales outstanding and inventory days |
Negotiate deposits, shorter terms, minimum orders, and credit limits for new accounts. |
A risk matrix is not pessimism. It is a way to preserve cash before the business is busy enough to absorb mistakes.
Funding, Compliance, and Lender Readiness for Cookie Operations
Funding should match the operating model. A cottage-food cookie business often fits owner savings, a small equipment loan, or an SBA microloan. A shared-kitchen e-commerce brand may need working capital for packaging, ingredients, paid marketing, and seasonal inventory. A storefront may need term debt for equipment and leasehold improvements, plus a line of credit to handle payroll and ramp-up losses.
The SBA’s Microloan program provides loans up to $50,000 through intermediary lenders, while SBA 7(a) loans are a broader small-business financing tool. For seasonal or inventory-heavy growth, the SBA also describes a 7(a) Working Capital Pilot. The borrower still has to prove repayment capacity, collateral where available, owner equity, clean records, and realistic assumptions.
$10K-$50K
Micro launch funding
Works for cottage operations, market booths, basic production upgrades, and initial packaging.
$75K-$250K
Growth or shared kitchen
May cover equipment, inventory, website, marketing, labor ramp, and several months of reserve.
$250K+
Storefront or production facility
Usually requires detailed lease, contractor bids, equipment quotes, debt schedule, and break-even support.
Financially framed opening sequence
Weeks 1-3
Validate demand
Test pricing, minimum order sizes, repeat interest, and local customer segments before committing to high fixed costs.
Weeks 4-8
Lock compliance path
Confirm cottage, commercial kitchen, retail food permit, packaged-food label, and insurance requirements by channel.
Weeks 9-16
Quote capacity
Collect equipment quotes, kitchen terms, packaging minimums, supplier pricing, and production labor assumptions.
Weeks 17-26
Fund and launch
Open with cash reserve, weekly KPI review, reorder controls, and a customer retention plan.
Lender-readiness checklist: prepare a startup budget, monthly operating forecast, three-year projections, owner equity plan, use-of-funds schedule, debt-service calculation, lease terms, equipment quotes, food permits, insurance binder, and a break-even explanation that ties units sold to cash flow.
How Much Can the Owner Earn, and What Payback Period Is Realistic?
Owner earnings are not revenue. They are what remains after ingredients, packaging, labor, rent, utilities, repairs, marketing, insurance, software, professional fees, taxes, debt service, equipment reserves, and working capital needs. A small owner-operated cookie business can produce meaningful income if the owner’s labor is priced correctly. A larger storefront can show impressive sales while leaving little owner cash if rent, labor, and debt service are too high.
The owner should separate three figures: accounting profit, owner wage for hours worked, and discretionary cash available for draws. If the founder works 50 hours per week and takes $60,000 per year, that may be a job, not yet an investment return. If the business also produces $40,000 of cash after debt service and reserves, then the owner has both compensation and return on capital.
Owner earnings logic
Potential owner draw = operating profit - debt service - taxes - maintenance capex reserve - working capital reserve
For a founder-operator, add a fair market wage for owner labor before judging whether the business creates true investment profit.
| Scenario |
Annual Revenue |
Operating Profit Before Debt |
Debt / Tax / Reserve Adjustments |
Potential Owner Cash |
Payback View |
| Conservative shared kitchen |
$220,000 |
$28,000 |
$16,000 |
$12,000 plus any owner wage already included |
Slow payback unless startup cost is very low. |
| Base online / local hybrid |
$450,000 |
$72,000 |
$30,000 |
$42,000 after reserves and debt |
Reasonable if investment stayed below $150,000. |
| Upside retail shop |
$950,000 |
$160,000 |
$72,000 |
$88,000 after reserves and debt |
Attractive only if sales density and labor control hold. |
Payback period formula
Payback period = initial investment ÷ annual cash flow available for payback
If the founder invests $120,000 and the business produces $40,000 of annual cash after debt service, reserves, and taxes, payback is about 3 years. If cash flow falls to $20,000, payback stretches to 6 years.
5-8 years
Conservative case
Slow ramp, lower repeat rate, ingredient inflation, and underused equipment stretch payback.
3-5 years
Base case
Steady repeat customers, controlled labor, disciplined menu, and moderate debt support a realistic payback window.
2-3 years
Upside case
Requires strong sales density, high average order value, low waste, and contribution margin that survives scale.
Payback can look attractive on paper but stretch in reality because holiday sales do not repeat evenly, wholesale accounts may pay slowly, equipment needs maintenance, and the owner often reinvests in capacity before taking full draws. A good model should show both annual profit and monthly cash because a cookie business can be profitable in December and still cash-tight in February.
How Does the Financial Model Connect the Whole Cookie Business?
A cookie business financial model should connect operating choices, not just create a sales forecast. The founder should be able to change average order value, batches per week, labor minutes per batch, ingredient inflation, rent, marketing spend, and debt service, then see the effect on break-even, cash balance, owner draw, and payback. That is what turns the model from a spreadsheet into a decision tool.
1
Inputs
Prices, recipes, batch sizes, labor rates, rent, equipment, permits, and launch spend.
2
Revenue
Orders, average order value, repeat rate, seasonality, wholesale terms, and channel mix.
3
Margin
Ingredients, packaging, card fees, labor, waste, fulfillment, and shipping subsidies.
4
Cash Flow
Fixed costs, debt service, inventory buys, receivables, taxes, repairs, and reserves.
5
Decision
Break-even, funding need, hiring plan, owner draw, expansion timing, and payback.
This connected view matters because one assumption often moves several lines at once. Raising price may improve contribution margin, but it may lower conversion if the product is not differentiated. Adding wholesale accounts can lift volume, but it lowers price per unit and increases inventory. Buying a larger oven can improve labor efficiency, but it adds debt service and maintenance risk. Hiring a baker can free the owner for sales, but the business must then sell enough incremental contribution to cover payroll.
Average order value
Raises revenue per customer, reduces required order count, and can justify bundles, gift boxes, drinks, subscriptions, or minimum order thresholds.
Ingredient cost percentage
Moves gross profit directly. A 5-point cost increase can erase the owner draw in a thin-margin month, so repricing and supplier control matter.
Labor minutes per order
Connects production design to capacity. Low productivity raises break-even even when ingredient margins look good.
Rent and fixed overhead
Drives break-even sales. A storefront should be delayed or negotiated if realistic daily order volume cannot support the fixed load.
Debt service
Reduces cash available for owner draw. Profit can be positive while cash is negative after loan payments and reserve funding.
Repeat purchase rate
Raises lifetime customer value and lowers dependence on paid ads, holiday spikes, and constant discounting.
The best financial plan is not the most optimistic one. It is the one that shows what has to be true: how many cookies must sell, at what price, through which channel, with what labor hours, and with enough cash left to pay the owner after the bills are real.